June 4th, I believe.

Hi guys

So I've been catching up on the thread a little this morning. I think you all deserve some comment at least, so here you go!

For those of you still concerned about the cap issues that Amarr will now face with both of its turret based options: we hear you. We are really caught here because a significant number of players find the cap bonus less exciting than a bonus like tracking. That said, its a really important bonus because of what it allows laser ships to do. We've been talking with the CSM, watching this thread, and doing experimenting of our own with the new ships internally to try and figure out how much of a problem it is. So far, we remain convinced that you will enjoy the Apoc more, on average, without the cap bonus. We want to let it go to public testing this way and then adjust off feedback at that point if there's major problems.

For those of you concerned about the idea that Gallente got revisions because they asked, and Amarr are not, I urge you to see the two as in completely different situations. The first set of Gallente ships were not just controversial or "off race", they were a broad disappointment. Once people began to point out that they simply fell short, we looked at them and tended to agree, so we were happy to go back and work on them some more. Amarr is in a different place where its not that they are simple "bad" ships, more that there is a lot of disagreement about how this race line should be structured. Thats understandable. We are in a really difficult position of wanting to offer new options for Amarr pilots, despite them having 2 iconic ships and one fleet staple. That means no matter where we go (for instance if the Apoc had become the drone ship) someone is going to be unhappy.

We, along with many players, feel that this an exciting direction for Amarr. I would ask that you guys accept this draft as more or less set, and then help us out with testing once these go to a public server.

I do appreciate your feedback and promise that its not falling on deaf ears.

Being called Gallentean right after Gallente were saying we hate Gallente is pretty awesome.

You're right about the primary racial roles, but Amarr has been establishing a stronger drone representation throughout tiericide. Tormentor -> Dragoon -> Arbitrator -> Prophecy. And Khanid has always existed as a missile focused division of Amarr. I don't think we are straying far at all from Amarr offensive system organization with this battleship line.

Cap stable with standard? Who actually loads standard?

Crystals used is in fact, entirely irrelevant, because the only crystals that are genuinely worth using are IN Multi, and Scorch.

And, if you cared to actually read the thread, most people are complaining about the cap use of Beams.

Modules fitted is also irrelevant, because we can easily take into account the Amarr slot tax for cap, so we have very little wiggle room as far as what we fit.

Skill levels are relevant only in how much this impacts the new player with less than perfect skills. Which, universally, the answer is that Amarr is a "all skills V" race (at least above frigate level anyway), and remains so with these changes. "No newbies need apply" might as well be the tagline of our race.

If anyone listens to the "Sh** on Kugu" Eve podcast, in the last section of the latest one they talk about Arty Abaddon fleets and how a Test FC is having success with that setup. Someone on the CSM is even running on the platform of making that a more sanctioned setup. If anything is a flashing neon sign that beam's are broken as hell it is the success of Arty Abaddon fleets (I mean other than 107+ pages of overwhelmingly negative feedback with zero meaningful CCP feedback).

Personally I think it is idiotic to have a race firing a weapon that is triple the cap cost as the next weapon down and yet has TWO BS's with 8 turrets, whereas the Gallente feedback prompted them to change their BS's to not have 8 turrets anymore. Apparently 107+ pages isn't enough or they were never actually looking for Amarr feedback.

New Amarr tagline suggestion: "Low SP and non-fleet need not apply"

Joke's on us guys, we can drop an additional 25% cap use of lasers if we don't learn rapid fire.

Attack battleships

I may post this in every thread.

Anybody feel these are a little lacking in their role.

The Mega may be an exception due to itGÇÖs opportunity for massive close range DPS but generally these feel like they should be on the move and yet seem to have cap problems doing so, this is not so much a problem for combat battleships that may end up in scram range or as fleet platforms where mobility is just one factor.

Attack frigates have a role bonus over combat frigates, this helps them maintain tackle and speed by reducing the cap draw of propulsion disruption modules. At battleship level such a bonus would make very little difference but at battleship level, no ship can run a Microwarpdrive for any significant period of time.

How would people feel about a cap reduction role bonus for propulsion modules for all Attack Battleships? Even something as strong as 50% or even 75% to enable these ships to stay on the move (as much as battleships can) without constant cap boosting.

I didn't even think about it from the Arty Abaddon angle but YESS, 100% agree!

Switching at least the Abaddon to 6 turrets but keeping same damage is now an even more obvious, low risk solution:

1) Helps out the PG fitting for those that don't like being forced into Scorch to avoid PG mods/rigs
2) Don't have to spend all the mid-slots on cap modules
3) Elegant "solution" to Arty Abaddon fleets which are having huge success
4) Brushes the cobwebs off Large Beams for anything but a Nightmare
5) Having 2 8 turret BS's for the race with triple the cap cost just to fire your weapons and absurdly more PG to fit them is a cruel joke

No other race have oversized long-range turrets.

425 are the Third size of large Hybrids.
Every single Laser Beam has excessive fitting requirements pretty much, in every single size.

Hybrids have.
Dual 250.
350.
425.

Lasers have.
Dual Heavy Beam
Megabeam
Tachyon

Dual Heavy beam has more fitting requirement than a 350.
Megabeam has nearly 50% more fitting requirement than a 425. 50%! Despite being a 'smaller' size with weaker stats than the 425.
Tachyon is at about 75% more fitting requirement than a 425. And is the matching Tier.
Tachyon is also 500PG higher fitting than a 1400. Tachyons cost MORE PG than the highest alpha Arti in the game.

I think most people "accepted" the change especially since it looks like they had the art done long before they asked for feedback, though it looks like they're not interested in that as well. Personally I think the comments about it are overwhelmingly negative and I've followed all 110 pages closely. Most tend to agree that taking an iconic and popular ship and giving it a niche support role isn't a good idea and if they really wanted to use the art they should have added a hull. More people wouldn't complain about it if they left one of the other two ships any way playable to either new SP or non-fleet players.

When you're one of the other three races. All three can reasonably fit at least one of their ships and mission/solo pvp with them with all lvl 3 skills. Try and fit an abaddon or apoc with lvl 3 engineering or not lvl 5 cap skills, I'll run and grab the tissues. Save 1-2 of them for when you try and fit an active tank or MWD even with lvl 5 skills.

So?
We can also complain that 425mm Rails have more CPU requirements than any other large long-range turret. In isolation this means nothing.

Try this: When we compare DPS we get a very different picture:

Weapon Dam / Dur = Dam

Tachyon 4.5 12.5 0.360
Mega Beam 3.0 9.0 0.333
Dual Hvy Beam 2.0 7.2 0.278

425mm Rail 3.025 9.56 0.316
350mm Rail 2.2 7.31 0.301
Dual 250mm 1.65 5.85 0.282

1400mm How 10.672 40.16 0.266
1200mm Arty 5.082 21.04 0.242

Note that a Tachyon does far more DPS than any other weapon, and that artillery pays for its alpha by having very poor DPS. Hyrbrids have superior range, but lower DPS than lasers (and worse tracking). Lasers have the best DPS and the best tracking, at the cost of high PG requirements, and high cap use (but other turrets use ammo, and have a slower reload time than lasers).

If tachyons weren't a pain to fit they'd be overpowered.

Yea, 5 is what I meant, typo fail :).
I kinda like the neut bonus, it is an Amarr thing, and it is a very general boat that can fit any weapons it wants currently, (Though anyone fitting cap using guns to it.... And it doesn't have the PG to think about fitting LR Guns except rails) but I can see it is an underwhelming bonus with that Analysis.
I would note the Curse currently costs more than the Geddon, Geddon is going at around 100 Mil, but that will jump with the extra materials. And cost is meant to be only a tiny balance factor anyway.

Tier 3's will probably drop, and they'll all probably normalize at somewhere around 150-200m per hull. They definitely won't bring BS cost down to tier 1 level.

However if they decide to prove me wrong, I won't be upset.

It would indeed be nice, though I doubt they'll go that low. I think ~125-150m would be a decent level, at about a little over double the price of the next step down (an attack BC).

Eh I think that's not even close to being balanced if that is their intention. Having more than triple the cap cost per second to fire is significantly more limiting and leaves you more vulnerable way longer than having to reload for 5 seconds every 4.78 minutes (425 ii's with lvl 5 rapid fire).

Actually with Odyssey stats gallente battleships have more cap than amarr ones.

CCP Rise was hired.

I am not going to demonize the guy. Let's give him and other employees the benefit of the doubt and see what they have to say. I'll be at Amarr applying holy fire err... shooting arty at the statue with the rest of you otherwise.

I'm finishing T2 rails myself. **** Amarr BS.

Sorry my sarcasm from text o-meter is broken, are you being sarcastic? Having to fit 2 PG mods and only running for 4 minutes sounds like all around bad news for me.

'Much praised by its proponents and much maligned by its detractors, the Armageddon-class battleship has always been one of the most hotly debated spacefaring vessels around. Its distinguishing aspect - and the source of most of the controversy - is its sheer versatility, variously seen as either a lack of design focus or a deliberate freedom for pilot modification.'

I went ahead and fixed the description for you.

What the hell is a player with 2-3 in core skills for one of the consistently most skill intensive races in Eve doing even considering boarding much less fitting or even buying a BS?.

Sure, the grid could do with a bump, but even with the low 13.5k (16.8k after skills) it has great potential using a neut/AC, neut/missile setup .. would prefer enough to allow for laser/blaster fits but no absolutely critical.

The market statistics prove you wrong, easily. The battleship you call "noone using" is used by 60% Amarr battleship pilots.

If it's such a throwaway and not worth the crap, why am I prefer it over other two? I'll tell you why - because it's better. Simple at that.

I have ALOT of SP in drones already, and I'm NOT going to use that crap afterward. Because who ever want to use crap?

And once again - as a drone boat Armageddon is outclassed by Dominix (and it should be), as a neut boat it is outclassed by Abaddon that has more tank and more neuts, and if you fit it with 5 torps and two neuts every tier 3 that just replaces 2 turrets with neuts will outclass it in every possible way.

Apocalypse got nerfed to the ground. It lost capacitor, drones, hp, and gained a tracking bonus that outperforms (slightly) dmg bonus only when shooting T1 cruisers that are in perfect orbit at 25-30km, i did a test and posted it a few pages back. Nvm that T1 cruisers cant do anything at 30km range, or that perfect orbits never happen. And it also lost a rig slot for now mandatory discharge rig, a rig i could use for metastasis adjuster if i wanted tracking so basically all it gained is 12% tracking, a little more than tracking enhancer gives you. The only ship that got nerfed to the ground in this "rebalance".

And why are the same ppl that are complaining that the Tempest is underpowered praising Apocalypse? Tempest got a huge buff to hp, now having even more armor hp than apocalypse, can use all 3 rigs for something other than "i can fire my guns" rig, thanks to double damage bonus will outdamage it to 35-40km, has two utility high slots and can be armor or shield tanked. It even has more drones than Apocalypse. And can fit artillery.

You that much of an elitist in real life? Low SP means < Level 5 in this context and if you're going to bring the new geddon and drones into Worlds Collide or Blockade (or any level 4 for that matter) let me know how that goes and then come back when you know what you're talking about instead of just chest thumping.

New BS pilots need viable beam fits until the 2-3 months is up and they can Scorch it like everyone else, and none of the T1 BS's are cap-usable with beams and an active tank (even at level 5). The other races have options for outside of fleet flying, the Amarr should too.

Well I would say:

- Apoc: Slightly reduced effectiveness for L4, you will lose around 5% dps or range. It is something to consider but not a big deal breaker. On the flip side maximum tracking is quite a bit better making the hull more powerful for Incursion, what probably makes quite a lot amarr pve pilots happy.

- Abaddon: Lasers need a bit less cap, you will need to rep a bit more by the lower resistance. I don't think it is any particular big change overall.

- Navy Geddon: More armor, fitting and drones(2 sentry sets plus spares are very nice), less cap need. Overall clear buff.

- Navy Apoc: Stays mostly as before as a Apoc with a extra low, extra armor.

- Paladin: Less cap need, can finally fit a large repper, AB and tachs after a T2 damage rig. Overall clear buff.

- Nightmare: Less cap need, and given that this is the main issue in a tach fitting, it is not a bad buff.